Playing Nightly makes me worried

We condemn it because it poses no reward. It brings only a mandatory risk, or rather sadistic punishment that only serves to be an issue in the beginning. Without a reward, risk is meaningless. Not just in games, but in everything. I could lecture you on the concept of risk vs reward to bring about a sense of accomplishment, but I'll keep it simple.

People gamble (take a financial risk) to try and get a big-payout (the reward). It won't always happens, sometimes the risk is small and the reward is huge ($20 lotto ticket for a several hundred million dollar payout), other times it's the opposite (huge casino gamble with little to no payout based on odds). Then you have base jumpers. The risk is in not just the base jump itself, but avoiding being caught by local authorities and/or dying, and the reward is the rush of adrenaline the base jumper gets from overcoming all the risks. You cannot simply add a punishment for dying that merely adds to the iteration time and call it a risk without some tangible reward to compensate. That's the whole point of risk vs reward.

People feeling bummed out over losing progress at the start is -not- the overall feeling you want most of your player base, let alone potential customers to feel when playing your game. Chucklefish must make the game capture and amaze the players almost immediately. This game cannot survive if the main piece of advice boils down to being "Just save and exit the game every time you get a few ores on your first planet to save them in your ship cargo hold, or you'll lose all that progress. It gets better like, 6-8 hours in, trust me." That right there? That kind of message and feeling will be a sign to many potential gamers to look elsewhere for enjoyment.

Yes, the penalty for dying right now is marginal. Unless you count the beginning, where pixels are rare and needed for that super-important Iron-tier equipment just to have a reasonable chance at surviving a T1 planet, which you might not even get put on with the current nightly build. The thing is, the mechanics aren't even done yet, balancing is still being tweaked. Once all that is done, they can then work out a reasonable death penalty. That should allow the optimal usage of risk vs reward.

I really don't want to post that extra Credits video of how punishing games don't sell, but difficult games do sell. I've posted it so many times (once or twice here, many times on the Warframe forums) that it's getting to the point I can recite almost all of it by heart.

I prefer the dictionary definition of challenge, it's more concrete and less susceptible to being misread, usually. We all know the game lacks challenge, but most sandbox games are never big on challenge, more emphasis on allowing the player to play however they want. They can opt for self-imposed challenges to test themselves. That tends to fall under personal tastes however. As it stands, I think the game mainly lacks challenge because it's still being balanced. The hardest part about balancing for challenge in a game is well, determining how much of it you want for the kind of game it is and how the mechanics and balance can support it. It's nowhere near as easy as some people make it out to be, because some people might take to the challenge more easily than others, if those people represent a small portion of your player base and you appeal to them too much, you might kill off the greater player base. I'll explain in further detail later in the day, as it's getting very, very late for me.

 

honestly there is nothing to spend pixels on
besides shops but they sell almost nothing usefull
and the 1st upgade of 500 witch is almost nothing

and i like that ores are deeper it makes it so you have to dig down insead of just scanning the surace
tho i do think that copper is waaaaay too rare

 

don't fret.

ore drop was only implemented as a backlash to community complaints.

as soon as people stop complaining it will be back to normal.

 

didnt omni say that the reason the added it in was becouse the devs thought the game was too easy

atlest thats what he sead

 

Something tells me the underground will be expanded and there will be plenty of marvelous caverns that expose plenty of ore. If you dislike mining, how about spelunking?

 

I haven't played the nightly builds myself, but ore drops don't seem like a reasonable challenge. I remember from a long while back that there were going to be different levels of difficulty where if you wanted to, you could have items drop on death, or only pixels drop, or you die permanently, or whatever. I guess that's no longer happening? Or this ore drop issue is only temporary? I haven't really kept up with the development so i'm not entirely sure.

I can understand why people would complain about the difficulty before the nightly builds, and those complaints would be valid in my opinion if the game was finished, but it's not, so that's the sort of thing to be expected. I didn't find the game difficult before the nightly builds, but i assumed they would improve upon that later. That said, i don't think ore drops on death is a very creative way of making a challenging experience. I thought the combat depth including weapon and enemy variety should/would be improved, you know, making the actual "game" part of the game more challenging, rather than introducing a new and different result upon death. The circumstances that get you killed in the game is what should be challenging, not the result.

However, again, the game isn't finished, so if this is how the game's direction is headed, then they really need to rethink things, but if this is just a temporary "challenge" then that's fine, i guess, although i don't see the point in adding a temporary annoyance for the sake of a "challenging" experience.

 

Well in Enraged Koala the balancing wasn't too bad, you simply needed to get to new sections in order to find more ores on the surface, for example on sector Alpha you could find coal and copper, and a lot less silver gold and platinum etc. but they were much more common underground, and with each sector you unlock they become more common, but the planet is more hostile. Pretty good balancing already if you ask me.

Now that's a good solution in my opinion! Now we just have to hope it'll actually be added to the game, it could also add a lot more options for underground dungeons because they are easier to access as well.

The problem is having to dig down, I've been digging down for 10 minutes straight and didn't find anything at all, no caves and no ore. They used to have surface caves going down which made it slightly easier but not even those are gone! Which is also a problem since vines could be found in those, and now I can't even heal which makes the game way more punishing.

It's probably temporary due to the amount of complaints on the subject, although they could always have a new character difficulty that has the "drop ores on death" rule, and that way whoever wants to drop ores can and who doesn't want to doesn't have to. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do.

Well I hope you don't mind me doing it then, I'm kinda on a "posting Extra Credits videos" frenzy as well recently and it really fits this discussion so I see no harm in doing so:

 

if it makes you feel better
the no caves is a bug the devs are trying to fix
and it seems that the stone pickaxe (and propley the others too) mine faster as of the latest nightly
it seems so to me

 

I assumed it might be a bug, it's too game-breaking to be a feature.

 

Wait, what? Theres a HUGE reward, the ores you get from spellunking successfully.

If you fail you dont get your reward, sounds fair dosent it?

 

I fail to see that as a 'HUGE reward' as you put it. I pointed out many times in the past threads about ore drop on death being punishingly unfair because that stuff is required for progression in the game as a whole. Mandatory resources being gathered for upgrades in equipment are not a 'HUGE reward' in and of themselves. Let the reward come in different places. Navigating a difficult Apex Lab dungeon for a chest that could be hard-coded to contain several techs or even an artifact-grade gun, that is a perfectly viable form of risk vs reward. Brave a nasty dungeon for a guaranteed shot at some techs or artifact weapons.

Ores and such do not qualify as a huge reward in the slightest. They are mandatory and finite, and on the starter planet, that's unacceptable to be dropping them. Keep in mind your main equipment will be the broken sword and little else until you can scrounge up enough Copper ores for the first set of armor, then comes Iron which takes even longer. You speak of failing at something essentially required just to leave what will likely be dubbed the tutorial planet by the gaming community (nicknames among the fandom will likely be used when the game is released) as if it's some kind of reward.

The reward shouldn't be all the ores found in cave-diving (my uncle and his friends do spelunking, it's different from mining), it should be more tangible, such as being able to leave the starter planet or finding a secret chest while going underground that might even have a piece of racial iron armor/weaponry. That is a far better reward for deep cave diving than some simple ore/core fragments.

 

I concede your point. (personaly i dont realy mind losing ores since its easy to just put boxes down as "checkpoints", that way you wont lose it all if you die).

 

One of the hardest parts about designing risk and challenges in a game is having to figure out what is a requirement to progress in the game, what kind of game it is, and how the challenge can fit in and provide a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small, so long as it stands out. Not everyone grasps that risk vs reward needs to be relatively proportional in games (I heard horror stories about The Last of Us having secret caches that took a lot to get to and only gave a few simple crafting materials that often were less than what was used to find it) or otherwise it's a waste of time. I'm not saying you don't understand it, more like people who just want things to be harder (which I understand) without saying how the extra difficulty should be awarded, if at all (it shows a lack of foresight because they will be questioned on it).

I'm just the kind of person who likes to play devil's advocate for a lot of points because better that someone think about the other side of the argument/debate while things are still in the planning stage than being confronted after things are coded in and that much harder to change/undo. With all the feedback going on, ideas on how to make the game harder need to not only be detailed, but try to address concerns from as many as possible.

 

What your saying here in the last bits sounds dysfunctional to a game, its the reason games like this have different levels of difficulty because what you think is a small part of the player base could be much larger I for one stopped even looking at this game after their first update that basic made this game the easiest thing I've ever played, before that update they had me hooked and ready to buy but that update lost me and I've ignored this game only looking and waiting for an update that would put the challenge back into this game.

The game does need balancing like you said but unless you can offer me a census or some kinda data chart that shows the game community as a whole(anyone who plays any game regularly) has over 90% of gamers that like casual games/limited challenges of their games over having a challenging experince it would be foolhardy to just ignore anything they would want they wouldnt have difficulty setting (i think i remember reading they added that or maybe it was an intended add) to the game if they just wanted to focus on one type of gamer they are trying to gather as many gamers as they can that are intrested in the genre, maybe even ones that are not into sandboxy/adventure type games.

Idk im talking a bit out of my butt here after not looking at this game for over 7 of so months but from what ive seen so far trying to see if this game is in a nice spot were i want to buy it ive just noticed theres been zero offical update(thou its nice they have these like nightly updates? and keep updating people) the reddit for starbound is the most deadist thing ever, and these forums form the short amount of time i looked had very few post per day so I cant believe the state the game is in now is very health, community wise, and if a community is dead it tends to show potential costumers theres nothing to this game worth investing time into. so while I feel you have a vaild point in not showing too much investment into the minority of the player base but i have to ask, what player base? how can you be so sure your apart of the majority? and most important how can you be sure CF is profiting enough to leave the game as is and continue to support its development?

Edit: oh also i wanted to say why cant these features be a thing? cant they put into a different difficulty mode? or a toggleable setting? wouldnt that make it more sandbox if people still had the option i dont get why CF would make these "more challenging" settings a core of the game to all settings or why people automatically feel just because they added them they have to be.

 

In the modern age it is use to buy. However in the pased some currency was doubled in crafting as well. Hence some coins being collected and resmelted on occasion when a certain type of metal/material is needed. After all in the past there were copper and silver coins, if not other type. Sometimes these were smelted into making various things, including making new coins and jewelry.

Now a days penny's in USA past 1982 are not even copper anymore. So our history does have some use in materials that were used as currency in the past.


The nightly's are pretty tough as is, and sure things will change, as the progression is not complete yet; as well the balance. One reason I personally am awaiting patiently for an unstable/stable update. That may be a while, but I am use to waiting for many things, so it is easy enough for me. What I see in the nightly, mainly from others posting and the front page, makes me more glad with each new adjustment or addition.

Appended: One reason I can easily see pixels used as both currency and material in game is our own past, that and makes sense when you think about it being a mold-able resource.

 

Then why aren't you arguing for the absolute removal of death? That means no HP, no starving, no warmth, no oxygen meters, and no pixels. What makes these things acceptable risks/challenges, but not ore dropping?

 

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? I'm going to assume that has to be it because there's no other reason for taking the exact wrong message from what I posted.

 

It's based around the 3d printer concept, that is why it works that way

 

That is true. Still think for some people it is hard to see a usable resource as currency. Also if I recall directly the original reason dollars were worth anything to begin with is they used to be able to be used to get the gold that was backing it from the bank. It does remend me how people in MC picked rare but useless items (slimeballs or emeralds) as currency since now a days we are not used to having to choose rather to keep the chicken to eat or trade it for some wheat seed as it was in the barter system.

 

I have a better idea. How about you assume the other person has good intentions and wants to discuss something instead of indirectly claiming that your argument is invincible.